Wednesday, November 5, 2008

Be Prepared: The Onslaught of the Left

I wish I did not have to write this post, but yet I feel as though I have an obligation to do so. I see things at times in our society, sort of a cultural handwriting-on-the-wall, and I pray - asking God what to do with this information. Is it true? Or am I overreacting?

Ironically, the day that Sen. Barack Obama is announced as our President Elect, I received the following comment to one of my older posts regarding homosexuality:

you people are all hate - hate anything that doesn't fit in your box of normalcy. you don't have to like gay people, but keep your judgmental opinions to yourself.

gay people are born that way. they don't have a choice. no one chooses to be part of a judged group. my cousin and his partner are gay, live in suburbia and are blissfully happy and attend church regularly. so please do not assume that all homosexuals are disgraced and ashamed with themselves.

the reason so many gay people are upset and clinically depressed is because they can't be themselves. they can't be themselves because of people like you

we could all certainly make the same assumptions about good christian soldiers who are closet alcoholics or child molesters and the list goes on.

Jesus doesn't hate. He loves everyone. Judge and ye shall be judged.

I have to admit it was extremely tempting to respond in kind. When people attack, it's natural to react and with just as much passion. But I know this is not the response Jesus would advocate.

Jesus Christ did not hate people. He hated sin. He hated sin so much that He was willing to die an excruciating painful and humiliating death in order to pay the penalty for our sin. He was the perfect sacrificial Lamb, who takes away the sin of the world.

It was also tempting to 'fisk' the comment and respond line by line, but I'm going to refrain in order to point something out. The above comments are a fine example of Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, the handbook for leftist activists during the 70's. I am going to point out six of them that have been used in justifying the comments above:


2) Never go outside the experience of your people

Gay activists live in a bubble. It's a constant "Us vs. Them" mentality and there is no middle ground. Either you embrace them - and in doing so, never judge the behavior as being sinful - or name the sin and be labeled a hater. If you notice, most responses to anyone who does not agree with the Gay Agenda is first, a defense of the sinful behavior and then an attack on you for noticing it. It always begins first with their experience. There is no other way they know how to open the dialog. In their eyes, they are being "attacked" when someone simply disagrees with their sexual preferences. When someone disagrees with me by stating the chocolate cake, which I find so divine, is not attractive to them - I don't get mad and yell at them. I say, "to each their own," and move on. Radical gays are obsessed with what people think of them. Disagreement, especially polite and civil disagreement - will not be tolerated.


3) Wherever possible go outside of the experience of the enemy


"You have no idea how difficult it is to live as a gay man in this country!" Or some such. Whatever the outcry, you can be sure it will focus on how you are outside of their own predicament and as such, cannot possibly comprehend how they feel. Gay activists are some of the most dramatically injured people in the U.S. When activists do this, they are trying to get you off point and confuse the issue. The ultimate goal is to make you feel unsure of your argument, your convictions, your values - and in that moment, they will take advantage by pressing on to the next tactic.


4) Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules

How effective this has been with many conservatives and also Christians. How these radicals love to point out how far we have fallen from what the Bible commands us to do. You know what? They're right. I've often told those who ridicule Christianity that I absolutely have fallen short of God's expectations for me. It is why I pray all the time and ask for His mercy and forgiveness. Don't let them trip you up on this one. Agree and move on.


5) Ridicule is man's most potent weapon

Another classic tactic that has been used quite extensively with Christians, especially when Christians stand up for the Culture of Life and against homosexuality. Remember what Jesus said about those who are persecuted. What is interesting is that we've already been told that we would be hated for holding firm to the truths of the Bible. Homosexuals, however, have only been told they are condemned for their behavior. With each word of ridicule that falls upon us, we should pray that God would have mercy upon those who say such things because when it comes down to it, none of us would be here without His mercy.


8) Keep the pressure on

The radicals never tire. This is their "bible" and they believe in it as fervently as we believe in God's Word. As they keep the pressure on, we must resist the attempts to wear us down and persevere in faith.


13) Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it


Ah, this is the most clever of them all. Christians are the target for such hateful words. We will be accused of not loving as Jesus would have us love and that is the polarization point. Keep repeating the truth and repeat it again and again, and again. Jesus loved people. He hated sin. This is as true for the homosexual as it is for the alcoholic and the child molester. Jesus Christ hated sin's hold upon man, how it affected his whole life, his relationships with both himself and others, and the ripple effect it had upon society.

We were created to love and be loved. When we sin, we fall short of God's expectations of us. We choose to think of self first before God. In fact, we get wrapped up in "self" so much that we fail to see the consequences of our behavior.

With sin, there is not only a separation from God, which is devastating enough, but a separation from who we were created to be. If I'm on the floor in a drunken heap, I certainly won't be available to a friend who needs a supportive shoulder to cry upon. I won't be available to work in order to help the company that employs me. I won't be able to function as a productive member of society on any level because I'm stuck in my own mess. That's what sin does. It sticks us so deeply inside ourselves that we miss being a blessing to those around us.

So learn about the Rules for Radicals because I believe they are going to be used in greater measure against us.

But as always: Greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world. (1 John 4:4)

15 comments:

Rachel Gray said...

Thank you for that, Mary Rose; some very good points! I'll look up those Rules for Radicals.

Mary Rose said...

Rachel! I've missed you! I know you were involved in a very good thing, though. God bless you richly for your devotions.

Thank you for your kind words. I feel we're in for a pretty wild ride during the next four years. However, God purifies the gold by fire, so no matter what, it is all good. :-)

Laura said...

I agree re: wild ride. This may be the Purification of the Church -

Even now, barely 36 hours after the election ended, things that were warned against in few locations, like by Rush Limbaugh, are being openly proclaimed - that 401K funds are being eyeballed for "redistribution."

It's significant that Wall Street is doing badly. It's significant that suddenly Palin is being attacked by her own party and McCain associates - more even than the opposing side was during the campaign. Not her policies or her credentials, but her self. And that McCain - who went ballistic when some of his camp openly criticized Obama - is remaining silent.

I'm disgusted in the extreme. But we will help one another survive -

I don't want to be a martyr - but better a martyr than a traitor.

JoannaB said...

Today's homily was about God loving the sinner and not the sin. I find the Catholic Church welcoming and not judgemental in any way. I can't pretend to know what it is like to walk in their shoes or know whether it is all nature or nurture. I do know that some things are wrong because they are - if a person had sexual preferences for an animal or a young child - we wouldn't say - well it is just the way they are made - they can't help it - it would still be wrong. And even when we sin the church welcomes us - if we have not had reconciliation we can still go to church but not full communion until we are made right with God again. But the Catholic Church is the most forgiving, like the the story of the Prodigal Son, precisely because God himself is forgiving and because of what Jesus did for us on the cross. And because 'all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God'. I have had experience of 'radical comments' on other issues and I don't think they are even particularly well informed - just reacting to what they see as a threat on their personal freedom.

Adrienne said...

Listen - I'm a drunk. God made me this way and so I think I'll just dump AA and go back to drinking. 'Cause see - you have no idea of how hard it is to skip that martini every night and since God made me this way - well I might as well drink. And I think the government should buy my gin and olives or at least give me a tax break.

And since what I do isn't anyone elses business, if I happen to get in a car after drinking my allotment of martinis and squish someone - oh well, so sad.

But ----- we can't have laws against any behavior that God gave us. Think I'll whack my hubby tonight, too. Of course, that will be ok because I'll do it in private which is no ones business, doncha know?

Hmmmmm - any of that sound reasonable?

everyonecounts said...

Adrienne, I see your point which is covered up by your anger, but these people will never see the light. They think that being a good Christian is when they judge people's behaviors that they know nothing about.

Yes Jesus did hate sin and he died for it, but he does not need you to judge behaviors for him. YOU are supposed to live life as God intended for YOU and no one else. If you don't like someone's behavior and they're not showing a cry for help, you should keep your opinions to yourself. Believe me, I have many opinions about radical things that I don't agree with, but I don't know these people, where they come from, and why they act the way they do. So I CHOOSE not to judge their actions. Judge and ye shall be judged.

Rules for Radicals? This book, I can only assume was written by a conservative because every rule is a HUGE generalization of a group of people. Just because someone is not a conservative does not make them a radical. That book is useless.

I love how you first compare someone's lifestyle to your love of chocolate cake. When you tell someone that you think the lifestyle they're living is sinful and will condemn them, it's offensive. How would you feel if someone told you that your lifestyle is morally wrong? It's not your job to tell them (because I'm sure they've heard it before) and you should stay quiet. It's human nature to get defensive.

Gay people (and other groups) don't care if Christians approve of their behavior, they just want to be left alone. They're simply fighting for equal HUMAN RIGHTS that African Americans and women have fought for. Simple human rights. What you do in your church is fine, but don' try to manipulate the constitution into some form of the bible.

You DON't have any idea what it's like to live as a gay person in this country. Just like I don't have any was of knowing what it's like to live your life and I would never assume I do. It's terrible to think that you could. They're not trying to make you feel unsure of your argument. They're trying to let you know how they feel...whether it fits in your book or not.

Most (especially your type) would consider me a radical and I believe not one of those rules. It's all religious paranoid jargon that someone wrote to empower all the Christians who feel slighted in this nation because they don't like the direction it's going in.

I've seen multiple Christians who are allegedly filled with love purposely hurt "radicals" on so many occasions. They "couldn't" go to an inter-racial wedding or a wedding not performed in the church. They couldn't go to a wedding where they knew a homosexual couple would be or they wouldn't go to a ceremony for a homosexual couple - no matter how close in family relation.

How sad. How sad that love tears people apart because of the Christian agenda. All these people want is to love, yet your continuous and constant judgement of their "sin" pushes them away. These persecuted groups of people just want to be able to walk down the street and not get judgmental glares from people who don't agree with their behavior.

Imagine a life where your husband was in the hospital and you weren't allowed to see him because you weren't "married." I have seen people on their death bed who couldn't see their partner because they're not allowed marital rights. How ridiculous!!!

Christians are targets for such hateful words? I love how this "Bible for Radicals" makes the whole Conservative/Liberal argument seem so one sided.

I will say as for myself, I have never said anything to anyone that disagreed with me until they have said something. But that's the problem...Christians think that it's they're "duty" to tell people what's wrong with their lives and it's not.

Anyone who comes to my home is welcome no matter what color, creed, orientation, etc. And while they're in my presence I would not say things to desecrate their character. And you shouldn't either.

Remember, a church is separate from it's nation. Do want you want inside your church, but realize that there are millions who don't belong to it.

Mary Rose said...

Dear Everyonecounts,

Goodness, you are full of passion. I do admire that. However, there are few things I need to point out:

1) Rules for Radicals was written by Saul Alinsky in 1971. He was good friends with Communists and believed in taking down "those in power" by using the sheer numbers of the poorer people. He pioneered the whole Community Organizer approach, which is what influenced Obama so much. The book is about as far removed from the ideals of Conservatism as you can get.

2) You have communicated in many ways that Christians should just keep quiet when it comes to sin. Is that really what Jesus advocated? I may blog about this topic more, but suffice it to say He advocated bringing light to the dark world, but in love. Love. Love. Love.

3) Some gay people want to be left alone. Many radical gays do not. As repugnant as it is for you to see Christians "judging" others and "preaching" to them - radical gays are worse. Worse! With a capital OUTRAGEOUS. For instance, there are plenty of gay photographers around. I hung out with many gays during my college days and beyond. It is an entire subculture. There is an unbelievable amount of networking done, "you-scratch-my-back-I'll-scratch-yours" type of mentality.

So how is it that a lesbian couple could just possibly NOT find anyone else to photograph their wedding day so they had to ask a Christian photographer? And when she refused because of her beliefs, did they let it go? Heck, no! They sued her. As is happening across this country over and over again with other self-employed people.

So, no. That is not "gays who just want to be left alone." Those are gays who are going for the jugular to force someone to accept their lifestyle. And yes, it is a lifestyle. A choice. There are Christians who have renounced the homosexual lifestyle and some have successfully established a heterosexual marriage.

So before you continue to vent about how gays just "want to be left alone," think for a moment that there are Christians who want the same thing. Except we don't get that choice when radical gays insist we bow to them.

For the record, I don't "preach" at gays. There are ways to share the Gospel with people, but it requires sensitivity and following God's lead. I'll be the first to admit there are plenty of Christians who have been very unloving in their treatment of homosexuals, but there are also those who have been presenting a loving witness to them too. I worked within an AIDS hospice house, where the patients were in the last stages of the disease. We were a small group of Christians who went in, did the housework, cleaned the toilets, and would pray with them if they asked. They did and thanked us many times for what we did.

Shine the light but there are times when even the slightest ray of light is seen as offensive. Jesus already warned us that it could happen but we were still to be His witnesses. That's what the Great Commission was all about. Remember, He didn't set up some little office and wait for people to come to Him. He went out to the villages and the homes of the sinners to talk and minister to them.

I have never advocated accosting strangers to tell them that if they don't get right with God, they'll be sorry. I don't operate like that. Not all Christians behave that way. In fact, most Christians lead their lives rather quietly and will respect other people's privacy.

But Jesus? He didn't keep His mouth shut. I wonder what your thoughts are of Him confronting the money-changers.

*Linda Pinda* said...

Wow...

so much pain in our world.

Many previous posts have cited "so called" Christians, or the original comment saying "good Christians soldiers" who engage in a variety of vices, sins, and crimes.

I suppose "so called" is the point, but just because someone uses the title of Christian, does not make them one. Just as going to church weekly does not make someone holy whether they are gay or not.

I love my precious brother who is a gay man. I love him very much.

I do not judge him. Judgement is for Christ alone.

However... all those who claim to be Christian and continually quote "do not judge" and "Jesus loves everyone", need to pick up their bibles and read a little deeper.

Jesus does love everyone. But when the day comes, He will be the great judge and many will be sent to their own destruction.

Both the old and new testament are filled with passages telling us to be cautious of some, stay away from others, and yes, even to ask some to leave our presence if no repentence is practiced.

Love, Love, Love.... Everyone throws that word around. Love is not fluffy. Love is NOT feelings.

Christ Himself says "you know I love the Father because I follow His commands". ... "I follow His commands". That's love. Christ says "Love one another as I have loved you". Christ loved us enough to teach us right from wrong. He loved us enough to tell us that sexual immorality was an abomination to the Lord. He loved us by embracing some, and sending others away. When the multitudes refused to accept His teachings on the eucharist, He lets them leave. He does not corrupt the truth by changing His teaching to accept ALL.

And remember.... Christ tells us that we will be judged on how we judge others. And He tells us to be cautious before judging. He says we need to remove the plank from our own eye before pointing out the speck in someone else's. His point is that we need to be holy, more than it is that we should not judge.

As Americans we are stuck in this society where "everything goes". One man's "religious freedom" infringes on another's. It's not an easy balancing act.

But Christians are after all called to stand out as different from the rest of their countrymen. Jesus didn't say "keep quiet and let yourself get blended into the melting pot". He said "You are called to be a light to the world". He said "You are to be salt to the earth". He said "You are to be levening".

All of those things are the agent which transforms. All of those things are obvious, visible, active. Not dark, tasteless, or immobile. Not quiet.

Of all the "sinners" Christ addresses in scripture, where does He use stronger language than "I will vomit them out of my mouth". And who is He referring to? The lukewarm. The folks "sitting on the fence" of morality.

Christ entrusts a mission to us. His last earthly command was to go to the ends of the world and teach what He had taught.

Anyone who claims to know Christ and thinks that means we all need to just hug and kiss and accept everyone and all their beliefs, emotions, and desires... does not know Christ.

Being Christian doesn't mean keeping a false peace. Christ said "I have come not to bring peace, but division".

Christianity isn't pretty. And Christ's own words were that the world would hate us just as it hated Him.

My heart breaks for all those who feel that our "little" indescretions can't be "that" bad. It is no mistake that the creator of all used a piece of fruit as His point of referece. God cuts off all of mankind from paradise over A PIECE OF FRUIT!!!!!!! And of course, in truth, it is the disobedience which is condemned.

a piece of fruit.............

Of course, I know my arguments mean nothing to one who does not follow Christ. But I beg all of my fellow Christian brothers and sisters to not settle for a false teaching. I once thought that I was the "perfect" church lady... all the while I was living in mortal sin. I thank Jesus every day for pulling me out of that "comfortable" pit and showing me what love really is.

*Linda8

*Linda Pinda* said...

Just one more little point I'd like to make. I need to say this only because I have heard this "seperation of church and state" argument soooooooooo many times from liberals.

The seraration of church and state is founded in the first amendment to the constitution and was set to protect religious freedom and practice. This was to protect the citizens' right to worship as they chose and make sure that government did not mandate any one religious belief.

*********************************
"The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion" or that prohibit the free exercise of religion, laws that infringe the freedom of speech, infringe the freedom of the press, limit the right to peaceably assemble, or limit the right to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

******************************

This amendment does not restrict the faithful from the same freedom of expression, speech, or press that all other citizens enjoy as a right.

Anyone who thinks "church" is somewhere we "go" and not something we "are" will just never get it.

I also do not approach folks to accuse them of sins or try to force "repentence". However, the state is infringing on my religion by forcing me to pay for abortions with my tax dollars.

Things will never be perfect in this world. Everyone is looking for a "surface" peace. It ain't gonna happen. Never.

This world is too full of arrogant fools who think they can "fix" it by having us all put aside the convictions that divide us and just "be happy" together.

Jesus said "the poor will always be among us". He also said "there will always be wars and rumors of wars".

Oh, I suppose we could all be "happier" if we just hid that light under a bushel basket. But didn't Christ also say "What good is it to gain the whole world and lose your soul"?

The faithful of America have just as much freedom of expression, speech, and press as everyone else.

*Linda*

everyonecounts said...

much to say, but first off...


The amendment to the constitution was meant to protect religious rights. Absolutely. So what are Christian Conservatives are trying to make abortion from the onset of conception illegal when the Jewish religion doesn't believe that life starts until birth?

I don't think I'm being eloquent enough to get my point across because I'm so passionate...so I'm going to reflect on a response...

*Linda Pinda* said...

I would be opposed to abortion even if I were atheist.

You can't show me an ultrasound of a child sucking it's finger, reacting to light and sound, and yes... pain, and tell me that his/her life doesn't start until birth.

We better be very careful when we begin to discuss what "life" is. Let's face it... If we could hear them scream, we would not abort unborn babies. If the "establishment" can decide that life before it is seen and heard is not real life, then how long will it be until they decide when "real life" ends. Those of us who do not stand up for life at it's beginning, may end up reaping the fruits of our silence as we approach the end of our own.

In truth, I have seen this in action in my own mother's death. After a life of giving to her country, voting, volunteering, and working for the same company for 30years... they went out of business. Having had a heart attack, no one would hire her full time at 60 yrs old. She got kidney cancer. She was treated like a begging hobo everywhere she sought public help. She could not afford both food and medicine. She was humiliated and treated badly by medical "professionals". I saw her suffer needlessly at times. I watched a nurse write down on her chart that she refused to eat her meal as she prepared to take her dinner tray away. Writeen right there on her dinner paper was that she was only to eat pureed food because the meds had destroyed her throat and esophogus. On her tray sat a crispy chicken sandwich in a bulky roll. Refused to eat????

My mother didn't have to die at 60 yrs old and wouldn't have if our system valued it's elderly. And there is no way my mother should have died with the indignity she recieved.

But I did learn a lesson I will never forget... My mother was pro-life. She believed killing a child in the womb was murder. BUT... lifelong democrat that she was, she thought other issues were more important and that her pro-life issue was more of a "religious conviction". She was all but murdered herself by the pro-choice system she voted into office all of her adult life.

I doubt she ever saw the connection. But I did.

"Judge lest ye be judged"

My mother judged that life was not the most important issue.

In the end she didn't understand why the "establishment" wouldn't help her save her own life.

Make no mistake... "Life" is not about the unborn. There are millions of elderly Americans fighting for their lives everyday in this country. You can blame it on the economy. You can blame it on social security...

But in the end, it's about people and their belief systems. As long as money serves as the "god" of our people then that is all that will matter. Life will only be valued if it contributes to that "god".

My mother was finally accepted into the medicaid system after being told she was not sick enough for over a year. We got her acceptance the morning after she died.


...just as a sidenote... for anyone who says it was our responsibility to be there for her... we were. We fought for her, with her.... She did lived with us for a while until her health required attention she could not get in a home environment.

I didn't meant to get our discussion off track, but I think my mom's life is a perfect example of how lives are disposable in the good ol' USA.

This "life" issue isn't only about unborn babies. It's about all of us. But it's the unborn and the elderly who are on the front lines.

Once those front lines are penetrated..... we are all in the battle whether we wanted to be or not.

Blessings.... *Linda*

everyonecounts said...

I'm not Jewish and I'm not 100% sure if my previous statement is true, but my point is...

I made statement along the lines of "do what you want in your church, but realize that not everyone is a member of it."

Now we all have values. Things that we learn in the church that we should carry out into our daily lives. Absolutely. That's the whole point. Otherwise, you would just be "running through the motions" of being a Christian to say that you were...

I know you are all passionate about ProLife and that's great. I see your point. Many people are either prolife or prochoice...there's no gray area (my father being one of them). This is a touchy subject...

However, there are some religions and cultures that think the onset of life occurs at conception, birth or I've even read specific trimesters.

So different people believe different things for different reasons. We don't know where pro-choicers come from and why they believe what they do and vice versa.

To make abortion a presidential campaign issue and potentially outlaw it at a "specific point" can literally go against people's religious beliefs. How can a free nation do that? it just doesn't seem right, you know? It is, for most I think, more of a religious conviction...

I personally feel that for us to "determine" when "life" actually begins is impossible and it's sad that we have to do that. I don't know anyone who has had an abortion, but I can only imagine it's a last ditch effort that they continuously regret...how sad.

But then let's say abortion is outlawed and thousands of unwanted babies are born. Then many of the same people who want these babies to be around and fought prolife will not want them to be adopted by unmarried heterosexuals or homosexuals (partnered or not). It just doesn't make sense to me....

Linda - So sorry to hear that about your mother. Thanks for sharing that story. The medical system in this country is a whole other posting that could go on and on and the sad part is your story is not all that uncommon. A very similar thing happened to my Aunt.

Sounds like the nurse needed a little bedside manner!! My mother had a mastectomy over the summer and it was the same thing - they tried to take blood from her left arm when there were FOUR signs in the room that said not to...scary.

It sounds like we're all already in battle! :) Or at least in these heated blogs.

*Linda Pinda* said...

Dear everyone counts:

You seem to be convicted of the thought that the pro-life cause is only held by the religious, particularly Catholics. I suppose those of us who believe God's Word, do have a special connection to life because Jesus said "I am the Life".

I don't know if you read my comment on the election post, but I don't know how anyone can think that the murder of an unborn human being is a religious matter.

Remember... It was people's beliefs that no man should be another's slave that brought about the fight to free slaves. It was the belief that woman deserve the same freedoms as men that began the fight to protect women and allow them the same rights as men. It was the belief that children are not disposable that brought about the fight to end child labor.

If good men and women of good conscience had been convinced that their personal convictions did not matter, we would still have slavery, oppressed women, and abused children.

At 18 days the heart beat begins. Period. That is science, not religion. And although I am unversed in other scientific evidence of life, I believe the very fact that a cell becomes fertilized is considered life in the eyes of science.

And talk about a hypocritical system.... there are people behind prison bars for the rest of their lives for murdering unborn children. Thus, our justice system does indeed accept that an unborn child is a live human. So... it's against the law for anyone to murder an unborn child, except it's mother....

Unwanted children?????????????

Have you researched adoption issues in this country? There are more parents waiting for newborn babies than any adoption agency can fill. The wait list for a newborn is years. People are forced to adopt from over sees (which there is nothing wrong with), but it costs an incredible amount of money to do so.

There are no unwanted babies. Someone, somewhere wants every baby.

I have personally intervened and convinced two mothers to keep their unborn babies. One mother was overjoyed to have her second son. The other had too many other issues to be able to parent well. Her son came to live with my family when he was six weeks old and is an amazing 17 year old young man today, giving of all his gifts and talents to make this world a better place.

I've never met a Catholic who wasn't ready to put their own life in the mix when it comes to pro-life and adoption.

We all know that life is in process in that womb. We can lie to ourselves. We can look the other way... but the clear scientific evidence is there. If we would not intervene... that life would be born. There is no arguing that.

It is not a religious matter. It is our very most fundamental human right, guaranteed in our constitution... The Right To Life.

Abortion may only be one issue, but once life is disregarded, everything else falls like dominoes. By the way... there is historic and anthropologic evidence that many a great empire began it's downfall with the "right to death". These matters are not religious... they are historic, scientific, anthropologic... Not to mention plain ol' common sense.

How can a free nation do that? How can a free nation deny it's most vulnerable, their most basic constitutional rights?

President Elect Obama said on his election night that he heard the voices of those who did not vote for him.

Did he hear the 10's of millions of voices of those who did not vote because they were never allowed to be born?

No. And no one ever will. Hitler eliminated the "unwanted" and "undesireable" to make his nation better... stronger. We are doing the same dirty work, only we are going after the unwanted who have no voice.

Just because someone else deems someone "unwanted" doesn't make them disposable.

*Linda*

Ps... Dear everyonecounts: From your earlier comments, I get the impression you do have some basic Christian faith. And yet, it does not sound as though you are willing to stand up for any Christian teaching and/or morality. You said earlier that Jesus died for all of our sins. Yet you don't seem to recognize that anything is a sin. If our sinfulness required redemption. And if Jesus Christ died to save us... then what is sin? If "anything goes", then didn't Jesus die for nothing?

We as a people cannot pick and choose what sin is. It has all been outlined for us.

everyonecounts said...

Well said. I think it's difficult to concisely and clearly explain myself on here, but I'm trying...

I don't think Catholics are the only Pro-Lifers, but I don't think they're the most persistent...and they believe it so strongly, that I admire that fight. All I'm saying is to put something into law is a huge step - a step that this nation better be willing to back up. There are two issues here - religious beliefs and personal beliefs and they need to be sorted out (which will most likely never happen). Catholics have religious reasonings in one way and other groups have religious reasonings the other way...

18 days. I COMPLETELY agree with you, but others do not. I'm just playing "devil's advocate" here...so it's hard for me to fight when I feel like other people's feelings are valid and justified for some reason that I may not understand.

Hypocritical system? Again, I completely agree with you and I see your reasoning. I actually made a crack like that once while watching the news.

They wouldn't become unwanted babies? I disagree. Yes, there are millions of homes that want babies and would love to adopt, but this country makes it so difficult. States have been passing laws that unmarried people cannot adopt. Homosexuals couples cannot adopt in certain states (since they can't get "married" and everyone thinks that their children would "catch gay"). It's significantly easier to adopt a baby from another country than it is here. If abortion came to a dead halt the influx of children would I think be so high that the paperwork and interview processes to become adoptive parents would leave these kids bouncing through foster homes and what not for years...

Then, think about being one of those children. Going through life not knowing your parents only to find out that you were the product of rape or some other terrible scenario.

Someone, somewhere wants a baby is true, but it's easier said then done. I live on the East Coast and I could name at 5 of my friends (all married) who tried to adopt a baby in this country and were forced to go overseas because of time and money. This country makes it very difficult.

Guaranteed in the Constitution? You're right. So are the human rights so many other groups are fighting for that are being denied like Homosexuals.

It will never be cut and dry. If abortion laws are passed someday, there will certainly be a bylaw about rape or incest...then how do we prove that? Courts, blood tests, trials...this will always be part of our lives and that's really sad.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by unwanted...Of course there is someone who wants that baby, but it will be a long road and I would feel sad for that child. I know children who have been through that...it's not easy...

I think we're on the same page more then you may think. I just really am interested and genuinely concerned with people who feel differently then I do.

I do stand up for my own beliefs, but I also listen. That's how we learn and grow and communicate. Even though sometimes I have passionate responses, I still listen.

I do recognize that there is sin, believe me. I feel more guilty then most about things...

I have seen Christians standing up for what they believe cause so much anger and resentment between family and friends all because of their delivery...that know-it-all tone (on BOTH sides). I don't think anything goes as far as sin is concerned. I don't think, however, things like abortion, sexuality and beliefs (and the list goes on) are so much more complex then many people think.

I'm a teacher (yes, this "liberal" is an educator) and my school is a 45-45 split in religion: Christian faith and Jewish faith (there are some other religions too). I didn't grow up like that (all my friends were Christian) and it certainly took some getting used to. How weird to say, "raise your hand if you celebrate Christmas." And I love it - I find it fascinating that all these different people can get along - and I learn so much about the Jewish faith and the Muslim faith. I even have students who celebrate Kwanza and I'm always looking to learn more about these various faiths. It's not about tolerance or acceptance, it's about a non-judgmental harmonious environment and it's great to see...and it would be nice if our nation worked that way.

*Linda Pinda* said...

Dear Everyone Counts:

In some ways we are so on the same page, but we read the same lines very differently.

Life is not a religious issue. It's science... plain and simple. There may have been a time when that debate was subject to religious interpretation, but no longer.

I will never understand why rape or incest change the scenario.

If a woman who is victimized by rape, is cut and severely scarred on her arm, how many would opt to amputate their arm to make their memories less vivid? I would think few.

But regardless... murdering another innocent human being is not acceptable. We cannot kill someone else to make our own life more bearable.

Murder is murder, no matter the motive.

And as far as all these children knowing they were the result of rape or incest... I would imagine many of these children who are adopted into families never even know. And even if they do learn these things, knowing that someone valued them enough not to judge them by another's "evil" and/or loved them enough to withstand 9 months of pregnancy to give them life.... especially with the knowledge of how many are discarded. I would think that although there would be emotional issues to deal with, they would be happy to be alive.

Let's put it this way...

If you could poll all those who are adults and were conceived via incest or rape, and ask them if they would rather have been aborted what do you imagine the rate would be?

Conversely, if you lined up all the babies aborted who were the result of incest or rape, how many of them would respond that they wish they could have been born?

I know a few folks who were adopted. None of them know the circumstances from which they were conceived, but they are all happy well adjusted people who love their families and are happy their birth mothers chose to give them life. Perhaps all of them come from violent beginnings. I cannot imagine any of them murdered because of someone else's crime.

You may disagree with my information on adoption, but it is statistically true. The reason the system is as tough as it is is exactly because there are not enough newborns for the demand.

If indeed you believe that homosexuality and life are on the same level of constitutional rights, then I would think you would be in the fight equally for both.

I guess our major dividing issues are clear. I know alot of folks who embrace the "I'm Ok, You're Ok" philosophy on life. "All religions are beautiful" "Harmony is the answer". It is true that there is some truth in all religions. But half truths can be just as dangerous as lies.

Scripture never calls for harmony, or compromise. It calls for holiness. That is something our culture rejects. So be it. But once we reject God, we will reap those fruits. Once we embrace killing unborn babies, it's only a matter of time before we decide as a nation that unwanted elderly or sick can be disposed of too. In fact... that has and is already happening.

Every statistic on abortion supports evidence that it is not the answer. Over 93% of women regret their abortions and live in mental anguish for the rest of their lives over their irreversible decision. There is scientific evidence of increase in cancers, future pregnancy problems, there are untold physical side effects, and emotional havok. Yet... we still think it's the answer. So? Why?

I read today that President Elect Obama is going to use his presidential powers to reverse the stem cell regulations President Bush put into place. So.... now we will be freely killing unborn Americans to try to find the cures for other Americans' diseases. What a market that will become...

Once again, there is scientific evidence that the cells from the umbilical cords of newborns has yielded more potential than all other stem cell research... So? Why?

I do not understand the thirst in this country for unborn blood. But I do know it's not of God.

I do know that had it never been legalized, many would never have even considered an atrocity a "choice". I know one scary moment in my teen years, I thought of it as a possible option. I never would have even let my mind go there for one second if it weren't a legal option. I thank God for the folks who visited my religion class and showed us the images of aborted babies. Thank God they did not remain silent and think it's a personal issue. And many, many other woman have had that same experience. If all the faithful were silent, the bloodshed would be unfathomable.

"What one generation tolerates, the next embraces"

Dear everyone counts...
I am very thankful for how warm and respectful your comments have been and I have so enjoyed intelligent and stimulating conversation. If this were my own blog... I guess I'd never stop! LOL! But I feel as though I have stated my postition clearly and we simply disagree. I will respect if you wish to respond, but out of respect for our blog host, I will not respond in this comment chain again.

Thank You Mary Rose for being so patient with me...

*Linda*